Fenqings Exercising their Freedom of Speech?

Related Justrecently Story: Dear Fenqings

My good friend Taide brought an article to my attention: “Can Fenqing or Angry Youths Think for Themselves?”

The Can Fenqing or Angry Youths Think for Themselves article (in the following: angry article or angry author) refers to an earlier article by Jamil Anderlini in the Financial Times.

I have no doubt that many fenqings can. But I also get the impression that they refuse to think when it comes to certain topics.

For one, because they feel threatened, as the angry author says. Let me quote:

We support our government’s Tibet policies and its efforts to hold a successful Olympics event. If any of you criticize and try to sabotage these, we of course will execute our freedom of speech and counteract the efforts of any troublemakers.

Nothing wrong with that. But think of a Chinese citizen who wants to exercise his or her freedom of speech and criticize Beijing’s policies on Tibet, or even just on the Olympics 2008 – good luck with that.

I remember how a Chinese national reminded me in the early 1990s that Berlin doesn’t want the Olympic Games. He referred to demonstrations in Berlin against hosting the Games 2004 back then – official Berlin had applied for hosting them, just as Beijing had (they went to Sydney in the end).

I explained that there were people in Berlin who thought that applying for the Games was a wrong priority, and that other opportunities had to be used instead, but that didn’t mean that most Berliners were against hosting the Olympics. My interlocutor nodded politely, but I don’t think he bought that.

The angry article makes another point. The previous article by Anderlini quotes a Chinese professor who is critical of the fenqings, and who didn’t want to be named. The angry author’s reaction:

“Another Western-media’s “not to be named” source!”

It’s true: an identified source would be more trustworthy. But I can understand Chinese people who don’t wish to be cited by name with their opinion. Had Anderlini quoted someone who sticks his neck out, the angry article would probably have labelled him one of those well-known troublemakers” – like Hu Jia for example (who isn’t available for interviews at the moment). Would such a known source look more convincing to a fenqing? I don’t think so.

Freedom of speech – or rather the lack of it – is a central issue indeed.

50 Responses to “Fenqings Exercising their Freedom of Speech?”

  1. Huolong sounds like a professional fenqing. What kind of “free lance” work will involve (1) online content management (2) online disseminating of information and (3) monitoring online presence of western media, including personal details of US journalists?

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  2. C.A. Yeung: Did you mean “online dissemination of disinformation” ?

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  3. The famous (or should I say infamous) John Smith! What an honour!
    You are absolutely spot on. Thanks for pointing out the typo error.

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  4. The youth (in any country) is the driving force of change, what makes them angry is when the older folks (especially those in politburo) refused to acknowledge their opinion. Let me describe an analogy in management.

    Being someone in 40s, I noticed this phenomena while working in companies (not much different from society, as we all are part if it),very often, those already in 10-20 years of working experience tends to be in the management seat, that is more like barrier between normal people vs those in government, what makes those young men/women become anti-management, is when the older folks behave as if they have absolute perpetual power over the youngsters- junior. They take power for granted as to decide fate of others, but that should not be the case. Because power comes with strong accountability and responsibility.

    I had the same observation with my own management practice, I chatted with them (sub), put forward some case studies to make them understand why I took certain course of action in most rational way, also I asked them, if they have better one, I am willing to tune in and listen, the truth is, quite often, they have one and I adopted part of their idea in addition to my own. For that humbleness, I realized I ended up having quite different strategy in many decisions made, they were good, at least, at the same time earn their respect. Even if certain time we failed, we ended chatting over it why we missed the critical point, bite the bullets and move on.

    Comparing myself with fellow peers that had trouble with their “rebellious subordinates”, they often asked me, what did I do to earn that, I just say to them, tune in and listen. Often they blame the “sub” for being too hot blooded and impatient, the “sub” blame the “old man” for being “chicken” to be risk taking, only want to stay status quo and be peaceful to disturb nothing.

    Back to fenqing story, quite often, when I chatted with my “subs”, I always reminded them, that, one of you going to be in my seat one day, I am trying to identify the best should 1 day I should leave this position (biz climate changes everyday), ask them to think about what are going to do about it to change it further to survive. For that, many of them I managed before are still good friend of mine, they appreciated the disagreement we had and why we need to disagree to come to best decision.

    The beauty about business entities is, no one stays there forever/perpetually with power, people retires, resign or once big mistake made, the power quickly change hand. I kind of like the idea that for political position/public office, there should be a limit to how long a person can hold office, at least no one should be allowed to even rot inside the office until retirement with perpetual absolute power, leaving these youngster outside unable to change things– become very angry…

    -woody

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  5. Hi Woody,
    I agree that the youth can be a driving force for change, and it also helps if they get angry as long as they can cool their anger to keep a clear mind.
    Then again, I think my differences with Huolong are about international politics and relations, rather than about management issues.
    While management issues certainly involve feelings, too (about a lack of recognition for good work and results for example), they are also more individual than where nationalism comes into place. Nationalistic anger looks like something rather uniform to me, while management is about individual ideas and solutions.
    Anyway – I’m listening. Blogging should be no one-way street.

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  6. Huolong sounds like a professional fenqing. What kind of “free lance” work will involve (1) online content management (2) online disseminating of information and (3) monitoring online presence of western media, including personal details of US journalists?

    To C.A. Yeung:

    You re-organized the elements from my About page and had this question for me.

    (1) My online content job was with my last employer in Harbin, Heilongiang;

    (2) if you read Chinese, you will notice that my Chinese blog and the English one share almost nothing.

    When I read Western media’s coverage of China, I felt quite pissed off.

    My pet peeves include: they alway refer to my country as China and Taiwan and Hong Kong; they always suffixed their postive reports about China with the June 4 and the government’s dictatorship; when China does well, it’s because the governemnt dictates its people to do well and if China does bad, it’s because the government fails to dictate its people to do well; they say Taiwan and Tibet should be independent from the rest of the country.

    I do set up my English blog to be heard by the English-reading community about how one Chinese guy (me) feel about his country and the world.

    (3) I’m not sure if the those journalists are just playing the role of a devil’s advocate. What I feel is that they practice double standards when talking about China and in fact the world.

    e.g. when Chinese police cracked down on violet protests, they are violating the human rights of the riotors and when German police do the same, they are just restoring public order; when China deploys missils to deter the independence force on its terriroty Taiwan, it’s threatening a democracy and when Israel is invading Palestine and killing innocent people, it’s just wiping out terrorists. Did you see how the U.S. and all the other West governments feel about this invasion? Not a single word of criticims from Bush or Obama?

    One word summerizing these all is: hypocrisy.

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  7. As your comment refers to German media, let me reply to that. There is no doubt that uncensored media can be biased, too. However, that doesn’t necessarily make their underlying statement wrong. I believe that the Taiwanese deserve to make their own decisions about their future.
    As for the coverage on the war in Gaza, most media here don’t refer to it as a war against terrorists, and most of their comments I have seen consider the Israeli raid “out of proportions”.
    Last but not least, if the police killed one of the May-1 protestors in Berlin, the cop who fired the fatal bullet would be under investigation, and if there was evidence that he fired without defending his or someone else’s life, he’d be convicted.
    This is my suggestion: allow the Tibetans to demonstrate peacefully. If there would still be riots then, I’d think that police operations would be just natural.

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  8. JR,
    Interestingly, even a small population like in office environment can be a good manifestation of whatever going on in a larger picture.
    We do have also “fenqing”-junior staffer especially, inside office, however, from time to time, we found out that they were enabled on “purpose”, normally by someone higher up that fed them tales of spin that got them going berserk. Also, from time to time, someone senior that has inside information are the one feeding them those tale to fuel the fire.
    Anyway, 1 thing I noticed about controlling “fenqing” behavior under my own team of people is, if you communicated to them on timely manner in critical issues involved their area of concern (their job, their pay, their role.. etc), they are least likely to be influenced so easily by others ( they will be intelligent enough to differentiate who was trying to spin, who was not), I had people came back with emotion, however, when I mentioned to them that sometime ago, I communicated issue (even though not firm up yet) , and told you all what was coming. A few times in my own team management, I openly said that, do beware that you do not become tool of someone else’s pawn by going berserk doing your enemy a favor by messing up own career.
    In some way, I considered myself lucky and manage to avert fenqing situation with junior staffs, I did not know if my directness of conveying news both good and bad in most direct manner, and willingness to tune in and listen to my people helped . However, I seriously do believe that to be the case.
    Inside company, the politics is such that, some manager wants to paint other in bad light in order for themselves to smoothly climb the ladder, at times, do malicious spin onto your staffs to revolt so that you are forever caught with people’s problem rather than able to focus on delivering company business. That is not so much different from country to country right or rival political camps ?
    The freedom of information/expression , is like me telling them certain things going to happen, get them into action to work for possible new options for their own benefit, rather than waiting until final hour then only broke the news leaving them no option, you are going to have many “fenqing” , also, from time to time they come back to tell me (because I always tuned in and listened), they heard from so and so about certain things going to happen, at times, I knew it to be true, I just say, I do not deny that possibility, supposed to be confidential but I do not know who in the management leaked it out, then they get message. If I have no knowledge of it, I just say, I did not hear anything, but I can find out more get back to them. Because of those interactive almost real time communications with them, they knew my integrity level and trust.

    What can drive junior staffs going into berserk is when news is being withheld from their knowledge and at the same time refused to listen to what they have to say, many folks are very independent in thinking ( just like youth in society), you will be surprise, as long as you are able to communicate to them candidly about it, they are less likely to go berserk and become fenqing.

    Not until some of staffs moved on to somewhere, they only come back and tell me the usefulness of such rapport I had with them, and my hardwork of trying to reach out and get them understand. Surprisingly, many staff only appreciated my hard works after they left me, I guessed that is what people called “legacy”, in a small way for me. Some told me, such rapport is like “golden nugget” for manager, but takes a lot of hard work as a manager.

    JR, it’s been a fruitful thought and discussion, I will tune in and continue to continue watch this space.

    Wish you a forever fruitful Lunar New Year…

    -woody

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  9. Taiwan is part of China, according to the two Constitutions that govern the mainland and what you call Taiwan. If it wants independence, it should first ask the rest of the Chinese population what their idea is.

    As for the coverage on the war in Gaza, most media here don’t refer to it as a war against terrorists, and most of their comments I have seen consider the Israeli raid “out of proportions”.
    Last but not least, if the police killed one of the May-1 protestors in Berlin, the cop who fired the fatal bullet would be under investigation, and if there was evidence that he fired without defending his or someone else’s life, he’d be convicted.

    Sorry, that was what the Israeli government said. Why do you think the Western governments keep silent about Israeli killing and the U.S. supports the killers at the U.N.? Is it because the Jews are the paymasters of some of those top politicians?

    Your suggestion is good.

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  10. @Huolong:

    1. Hahahahahahahah. hah.

    2. If it looks like a cat, sounds like a cat, and walks like a cat – then it’s a cat. Taiwan is that cat. Your country can be a dog if it insists.

    3. Your pet peeves are what the rest of the world considers ‘reality’. Deal with it, asshole. Unless of course you want to be one of the Red Army soldiers who tries to change the minds of twenty three million free persons by force. Hint: This is a career path that carries with it rapid promotion and an exceedingly early retirement.

    4. Taiwan IS an independent country, Tibet is not: it is an occupied country. Get your English straight, please. Oh yes, and Hong Kong is a Colony.

    Sheesh.

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  11. Welcome back, MyLaowai. However, before calling Hulong an “asshole”, please read these Golden Rules. Huolong invests a lot of time both to listen to others and to explain his own views, and he deserves respect.

    I recommend this unified thread for comments on this post and two others for now – but that isn’t obligatory.

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  12. Woody,

    thanks for your comments. I’ll have to think about them for a while. A happy and fruitful Lunar New Year to you too.

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  13. JR,
    I like your comment, simply labeling people as “such”, is just as poor behavior as “fenqing going on rampage” but done “verbally” or “literally”.

    Huolong,
    I disagree with you, but good effort to bring out yourside of story.

    I view “fenqing going on rampage” problem as equivalent to “public mob lynching exercise”. It needs to be remedied carefully and avoidance measure is what I described.

    Wish everyone contributed here a Happy Lunar New Year .

    -woody

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  14. To my lao wai:

    1. “Hahahahahahahah. hah.”

    Hahahahahahahah. hah.X2

    2. “If it looks like a cat, sounds like a cat, and walks like a cat – then it’s a cat. Taiwan is that cat. Your country can be a dog if it insists.”

    Do your math homework well. “as” or “like” does not make it “is”.

    3. “Your pet peeves are what the rest of the world considers ‘reality’. Deal with it, asshole. Unless of course you want to be one of the Red Army soldiers who tries to change the minds of twenty three million free persons by force. Hint: This is a career path that carries with it rapid promotion and an exceedingly early retirement.”

    The reality is no single country worldwide recognizes Tibet or Taiwan as a country. For the case of Taiwan, the countries that do recognize it as a country are dealing with the island under the name of Republic of China.

    4. Taiwan IS an independent country, Tibet is not: it is an occupied country. Get your English straight, please. Oh yes, and Hong Kong is a Colony.

    Read backwards.

    *Sheesh. and asshole.

    Wash your mouth and kiss your mom with it.

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  15. To woodyooi:

    I don’t know where you disagree with me.

    If JR’s ideas are also yours, then you can ignore this comment – if you care.

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  16. Huolong said this to me about the Western media:

    “When I read Western media’s coverage of China, I felt quite pissed off … One word summerizing (sic) these all is: hypocrisy.”

    Well then it looks as if Huolong you are learning fast from the hypocritical western media. The double standard you’re displaying in your comment is pretty much the same as the so-called Western media that you despised so much.

    You are accusing the western media of not respecting China’s territorial integrity on issues about Taiwan and Tibet. But since when has the PRC government respected the opinion of Taiwanese, Tibetans, or even Hong Kong people about their wishes to have a say in their future and in the way they are governed?

    How much do you understand about public opinion in Taiwan, Tibet and HK? Not much isn’t it. Why? Because your government has endeavoured to block them all from you.

    Do you know what is a Wild Strawberries Student Movement in Taiwan? Do you know what is HK people’s entitlement to self-governance according to the Basic Law? Do you know that some Han Chinese in Beijing had once set up a website to publish writings in Chinese about Tibet, but their site was blocked 3 weeks after it was launched? The website was blocked only because it contains a couple of essays written by Han Chinese about how much they respect Tibetan’s religion and tradition.

    Last but not least, do you actually care about these people (the Taiwanese, the Tibetan and the HK people): their feelings, their aspirations and their wishes? Please do not keep on repeating the same old rhetoric as Xinhua News has done and stop blabbing on blindly about how the West is not respecting China’s position on Taiwan, Tibet and HK. If you do, you are no different from the western media when it comes to double standard. The western media’s double standard is not helping to bridge cultural gap. In a similar way, the PRC propaganda agents’ double standard is not facilitating a meaningful reconciliation with Taiwanese, Tibetans and HK people.

    The main barrier to a meaningful dialogue is not the so-called double standard of the western media; it is information blockage in the PRC. So if Huolong you are a genuine “angry youth”, then I have to regretfully inform you that you are barking at the wrong tree. The only solution to China’s ethnic problem is through dialogue among real stake holders (not between the western media and the CCP propaganda machine). There won’t be genuine exchange of opinion unless there are freedom of information and freedom of speech.

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  17. MyLaowai said, “Your pet peeves are what the rest of the world considers ‘reality’. Deal with it, asshole. ”

    You speak my mind. Thanks mate.

    MyLaowai also said, “Hong Kong is a Colony.”

    HK was, is and will continue to be a Colony. That explains why Taiwan do not want to go down the same path.

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  18. C.A. Yeung:

    Please show me the public opinions you mentioned.

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  19. C.A. Yeung:

    If what the people you identify so much with care about is how they can take Chinese territory away, then I don’t care about how they feel. Neither do I believe they can talk the territories away. They (and you) can TALK whatever they want to. If they want to DO something. China’s answer: IF.

    You talk as if you were a representative of the people in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Hong Kong and a Basic Law expert. Who do you think you are?

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  20. The views of Taiwanese, Tibetans and HK people are readily available in the form of domestic news, TV broadcast, talk back radio shows and scholarly discussions. There are quite a large number of them, and they are from individuals or groups with a variety of opinion on different topics. They all form what we called “public opinion”. I’ll just name a few traditional media that I access on a regular basis: Ming Pao, Taikung Pao, Wenhui Pao, Apple Daily, South China Morning Post, RTHK, HK Economic Journal, United Daily, Taiwan Times, TTV, Phayul and 民间藏事. I also read blogs penned by Tawanese, Tibetans and HK bloggers. So which of the above can you access in the PRC?

    I don’t speak for anyone in HK, Taiwan and Tibet. I’m an Australian and an independent observer when it comes to international affairs. I have no personal or professional ties with any of those three places, apart from the fact that I blog about them. My loyalty is to Australia. And my concern is with Asia-Pacific regional security. My readers are predominantly Australians, Americans and Europeans. And my blog is blocked in the PRC.

    Are “fenqings” like you a threat to regional security? No, not really. The media outside of the PRC is making too much a fuss about this so-called revival of nationalistic sentiment in China. “Fenqings” like you are only a nuisance to yourselves and to no one else. I try very hard not to describe the like of you as pathetic because, believe it or not, I would be very angry too if I couldn’t have free access to information, or if I had to watch every word I said about my government.

    Do hang around. You may just learn something. Let me know if you want me to cut and paste any banned articles on Taiwan, Tibet and HK for you. I’ll be more than happy to oblige.

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  21. “The views of Taiwanese, Tibetans and HK people are readily available in the form of domestic news, TV broadcast, talk back radio shows and scholarly discussions. There are quite a large number of them, and they are from individuals or groups with a variety of opinion on different topics. They all form what we called “public opinion”. I’ll just name a few traditional media that I access on a regular basis: Ming Pao, Taikung Pao, Wenhui Pao, Apple Daily, South China Morning Post, RTHK, HK Economic Journal, United Daily, Taiwan Times, TTV, Phayul and 民间藏事. I also read blogs penned by Tawanese, Tibetans and HK bloggers. So which of the above can you access in the PRC?”

    A: One of the issues with people like you is that you underestimate others. True. XX.wordpress.com blogs are blocked here. I live in Beijing. How do you think I manage to climb over the Great Firewall of China? Easy. Use TOR and Privoxy. You made me a false enemy. Did you find me defending our government’s banning of those sites?

    “Public opinion” is what people think about topical issues. If what those you named form part of it, are you sure it cover everyone? Do the public opinion providers consult everyone? Are you so sure what you have heard the public opinions say is truly what everyone feels? Who are the “public” in the public opinion? (essentially the same question!)

    What do you think public opinions can translate into? Change of sovereignty? In that case, can people like me, one of the fengqings, on the mainland be included as part of the public opinion, especially since Tibet, Taiwan, and HK are Chinese territories and we as “shareholders” of China of course have our say?

    ” I don’t speak for anyone in HK, Taiwan and Tibet. I’m an Australian and an independent observer when it comes to international affairs. I have no personal or professional ties with any of those three places, apart from the fact that I blog about them. My loyalty is to Australia. And my concern is with Asia-Pacific regional security. My readers are predominantly Australians, Americans and Europeans. And my blog is blocked in the PRC. ”

    A: So, if you are not a citizen in HK, Taiwan, or Tibet, then these places are essentially none of your business. Though, of course, you have the right to blog about them. I’m very happy to know you are from Australia. One of my Australian friends told me that according to her experience, your country is one of the most racist in the world she had been to. Before immigrants went to Australia, the continent is the property of Australian aborigines. Or in your pattern of thoughts, the aborigines are Australia’s Tibetans, when do you white government consider returning the land to those natives and being kicked out of the continent? What did you government do to those natives? Do they get compensation for it and get back their land? China has large autonomous regions for its minorities. Do you have those things? Oh, I forget, you had or have reservations!

    ” Are “fenqings” like you a threat to regional security? No, not really. The media outside of the PRC is making too much a fuss about this so-called revival of nationalistic sentiment in China. “Fenqings” like you are only a nuisance to yourselves and to no one else. I try very hard not to describe the like of you as pathetic because, believe it or not, I would be very angry too if I couldn’t have free access to information, or if I had to watch every word I said about my government. ”

    A: You can wait until when today’s fengqings have grown to lead China in 20 to 30 years to see if we are a threat to local security. Fengqings are among the best educated and informed in China.

    If we are just a nuisance to ourselves why do you bother to argue with me?

    Pathetic! A very good word. I can understand how you feel. That’s the word I use to describe people I cannot reason with. Since your country is so close to China and some of your people’s jobs rely on Chinese growth, I guess you will have to adapt yourselves whether you like it or not, even though you feel some of us are “pathetic”.

    ” Do hang around. You may just learn something. Let me know if you want me to cut and paste any banned articles on Taiwan, Tibet and HK for you. I’ll be more than happy to oblige. ”

    A: To the same extent as JR has said, you and I are not here to change the mind of others. Whatever those articles say about, I don’t care and I don’t want to read them. My bottom-line is TW, TB and HK are all Chinese. Forget it if anyone try to make them go independent. No way.

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  22. People are talking about “angry youth” in Paris and Greece too. Journalists say that the angry youth (between 17 and 27 or so) are better educated than in the past, but can count themselves lucky if they can get a cheap internship with no great future. This is how they justify violence.

    It is an interesting theory, but I think that journalists get caught both by the youth-is-the-future stuff and the useless talk of many education politicians.
    The we-are-the-future youth of the past either “punished” or “impressed” his parents by joining the Hitler youth in 1933, or by cruising in a stolen car as a would-be James Dean, or let their hair grow and run through the streets, bawling Maoist slogans in 1970.

    It seems to me that the “angry youth” are just the same wannabes in the West and in the East.

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  23. C.A.: from memory I have the impression that I’m less critical of America – its flaws and crimes included – than Ned and you are. It may be a matter of experience. Many Cubans have reasons to dislike their Northern neighbor. But many Taiwaners have reasons to love America, or at least its role. America is one big force that gives a damn on certain things. China is another big force that gives a damn on what the Taiwaners may want. I’m not indiscriminate in where I should support America, but there are some things on my mind. America was the allied force that convinced all three other ww2 victors that it was time to end the occupation (a rather light one in the West) of Germany after the wall had come down. That was our independence day, and it even came without a fight. And America will rather lift the embargo against Cuba, than China would allow the Taiwaners make their own decisions.

    In some ways, it is a matter of Don’t-cross-your-bridges-before-you-come-to-them. Taiwan hasn’t made its own decision yet. To some extent maybe out of fear of China, to some extent because of disillusionment with the DPP, and many Taiwanese think of themselves as Chinese after all. Before Taiwan can demand solidarity abroad, even in case of a war, its people would have to choose independence. And after that, America’s congress would have to decide if they want to defend Taiwan or not, or if Taiwan “has unneccessarily endangered itself” (Taiwan Relations Act) or not. To be more inclined to defend Taiwan in case of a declaration of independence, America would have to stand less alone with its readiness to defend Taiwan in any case.

    I don’t like Huolong’s position at all, but I think his scenario is quite likely – if Taiwan wants sovereignty, it will have to be fought for, and if the Taiwanese should make that choice, they will lose if they are alone. A democratic China won’t necessarily view Taiwan differently from now. If we want to help Taiwan to be free in its choice – either way -, that will demand a lot more than sympathy. Don’t you think so?

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  24. Taide: you are an angry teacher!

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  25. I’m well educated and not angry ALL the time.

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  26. JR, you are making no sense at all: 1. What gives you the impression that I support Taiwan independence? This is a false assumption. 2. What is my being critical of the US got anything to do with Taiwan? This is a fallacy.

    1. I support my government’s view on the Taiwan issue: that we only recognise one China. However, I also believe that the PRC government’s Taiwan policy is wrong and that the Ma Ying-jeou government is incompetent. The wishes of Taiwan people is very important and should be respected (and won over). Taiwan people’s achievement in democratizing their political system should not be ignored or be taken for granted. Taiwan is not HK. A hardliner’s position in an attempt to subjugate Taiwan will only strengthen the support for some really dangerous separatist elements in Taiwan (such as Li Denhui). One shouldn’t under-estimate this group of minority because they have the support of the military, and they will go to the extreme of creating conflicts between China and Japan in order to get their way. Now, this is a scenario that’s going to be really bad for regional security. It may not concern you in Europe. But it concerns us in Australia.

    2. Being critical of the US is an Aussie thing. Americans and Australians are more like brothers and sisters – very critical of each other, but at the same time we are close allies whenever it really matters. We are critical of the US because we know that they can take the piss, so to speak.

    I’m busy at the moment translating something about the shutdown of the Bullog blog portal. So I’ll address Huolong ‘s points in the next day or so. But I’m going to do so because the discussion is getting more interesting. So stay tune.

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  27. I just checked my dear Britannica and found this paragraph in the opening part. I’m relieved to see that at least this West’s great book and its contributor reason the same I do.

    “From the mid-1660s to 1895, Taiwan was administered by the imperial Chinese government, after which (until 1945) the island was ruled by the Japanese as a colony. In 1945 Taiwan reverted to China, and in 1949 it became the last territory controlled by the Nationalist government. The government of the ROC has continued to claim jurisdiction over the Chinese mainland, whereas the government of the People’s Republic of China on the mainland claims jurisdiction over Taiwan; both governments are in agreement that the island is a sheng (province) of China. Taipei—since 1949 designated by the ROC as the provisional capital of the Republic of China—was the provincial capital until 1967, when the capital was moved to Chung-hsing Hsin-ts’un.”

    By John Wilson Lewis

    Source: “Taiwan.” Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica 2009 Student and Home Edition. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2009.

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  28. To C.A. Yeung again:

    I‘m very happy to see that you made your ideas about Taiwan and the mainland. I was too defensive when talking (writing) about the issue with foreigners like you.

    I look forward to reading your response to my January 10, 2009 at 4:44 am comment.

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  29. I also looked up the entry Tibet in Britannica and found interesting things. The entry opens with:

    “… Before the 1950s Tibet was a unique entity that sought isolation from the rest of the world. It constituted a cultural and religious whole, marked by the Tibetan language and Tibetan Buddhism. Little effort was made to facilitate communication with other countries, and economic development was minimal. After its incorporation into China, fitful efforts at development took place in Tibet, disrupted by ethnic tension between the Han (Chinese) and Tibetans and Tibetan resistance to the imposition of Marxist values. Official policy since the early 1980s has been somewhat more conciliatory, resulting in slightly better Han-Tibetan relations and greater opportunities for economic development and tourism.”

    This paragraph was written by “Historian. Minister of Finance, Tibet, 1939–51. Chief Representative of the Dalai Lama to the Government of India, 1959–66. Author of Tibet: A Political History”.

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  30. Constitution of the Republic of China

    http://www.gio.gov.tw/info/news/constitution.htm

    Article 26. The National Assembly shall be composed of the following delegates:

    The number of delegates to be elected from Tibet shall be prescribed by law;

    Article 64. Members of the Legislative Yuan shall be elected in accordance with the following provisions:

    Those to be elected from Tibet;

    ….

    Article 91. The Control Yuan shall be composed of Members who shall be elected by Provincial and Municipal Councils, the local Councils of Mongolia and Tibet, and Chinese citizens residing abroad. Their numbers shall be determined in accordance with the following provisions:

    4. Eight Members for Tibet; and

    Article 120. The self-government system of Tibet shall be safeguarded.

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  31. I’m not sure either if I wanted Western involvement in a war even if there was an outspoken majority in Taiwan in favor of independence, and I think that no statements that might lead to false expectations in Taiwan should be made. What I do believe is that the Taiwanese deserve to make their own choices, either way.
    Besides, I think I’d overestimate both my country and Europe as a whole if I thought we could change the course of developments to such a degree – even if we wanted. It’s true – we are no stakeholders in regional security when it comes to Taiwan. For Taiwan, we will make no substantial difference.

    Within Taiwan, independence doesn’t look like a judicial problem. Article 174 of the constitution set out how amendments have to be made. Internationally, it might add to Taiwan’s isolation.

    Either in accordance with the law or not, Taiwan will probably have to put up with unification – willingly or not. But as you ventured your judicial views here and there, I’d just like to point out that when you ask experts, you’ll get differing results. Here are <a href=”https://justrecently.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/taiwan-was-temporarily-part-of-china-but-that-was-long-ago/”conflicting ones by Phyllis Hwang and Yun Feng-pai.

    As for Tibet and independence in general, I think this comment subsumes my view. I said I don’t want to repeat myself, but asking newcomers to read every comment about this topic would be asking too much.

    I won’t have much time to comment tomorrow and on Monday, but I’ll try to read once a day and will catch up again on Tuesday.

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  32. Comments may contain up to five links for the time being.

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  33. Link number three above, third paragraph, is messed up. Here is the actual link.

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  34. C.A.: my impression was that you support every option the Taiwanese might choose. Apparently a fallacy for my part. I’ll be mostly busy until Tuesday, but take a read here at least once a day.

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  35. JR, I used Taiwan’s constitution as part of my argument because I assume that you who live in a country ruled by law can well understand what I mean: the most important document in Taiwan’s society shows the island is part of China. In its case, the China is Republic of China. Isn’t it clear enough what’s the relationship between mainland and the island? ROC’s Constitution is NOW enforced on Taiwan. The present tense.

    It’s true that constitutions can be changed fundamentally (e.g. change of territories and sovereignty). But by whom? By the island’s parliament? I doubt it. The islanders have their say, but the mainlanders do, too. Reason is simple: Taiwan is Chinese and mainlanders as Chinese citizens have their say.

    I repeat myself again: Sovereignty and territorial integrity is more than an issue democracy can solve. If democracy serves for all the purposes, why those armies fighting around?

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  36. “So, if you are not a citizen in HK, Taiwan, or Tibet, then these places are essentially none of your business.”

    Right. So by your own logic, these places are also none of your business, Huolong, seeing as how you are not a citizen of any of those countries either.

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  37. MyLaoWai:

    You must be living in a world parellel to mine that doesn’t seem to share anything with it.

    I’m a Chinese citizen and the places are Chinese. They are my business.

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  38. Yes, Huolong, I am living in a parallel world. It’s called ‘Reality’.

    But okay, let’s humour you. Apart from the country of Tibet, which is currently occupied by the Red Army, and to which Chinese citizens are now encouraged to emigrate by the Chinese Communist Party (you know the Party I’m referring to? The same ones who illegally seized power from the legal Government of China 60 years ago?)… Apart from Tibet, do the other countries involved issue Chinese passports? Or do they instead require that your Chinese passport be stamped with a visa when you want to visit?

    Try getting into Hong Kong or Taiwan using your skills with Logic.

    And what currencies do they use? Do they use the Yuan? No? That’s right, sonny, they don’t use the Yuan, they use Taiwan Dollars and Hong Kong Dollars respectively.

    What about the Legal Systems – are they the same? No, they are not. If you tried arresting without warrant a person for no crime at all (someone who has a religion you don’t like, for instance, someone like a Buddhist Monk or a Falun Gong practitioner), and then decided to torture them, send them to a concentration camp, and cut out their organs for a profit… Well, you can certainly do all those things in China, but you haven’t much chance of getting away with it in either Taiwan or Hong Kong, because in those countries the Law forbids it. And, unlike in China, the Law actually means something to the citizens and even some of the Government officials of those countries.

    And hey, y’know what? In those other countries I can say these things without fear that the Chinese Government, or people like you who work for them, will try to kick my door down. Although, to be fair, that’s not quite true, because they have done that before in America and Canada, and New Zealand recently, and they certainly do it in Asia all the time. So maybe I’ll concede that point to you.

    Many countries, many systems. And I haven’t even started on the occupied nation of East Turkestan yet, or the half of Mongolia that China still occupies…

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  39. Huolong,

    if I understand correctly, you are against a formal Taiwanese declaration of independence because it is a state that refers to itself as “Republic of China”? Would it have made a difference to you if they had given themselves a name like “Republic of Taiwan” in the 1950s to 1970s?

    I’d like to use Germany as an example. We lived in two separate states until 1990. Both states’ names contained “German”: Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) and the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). When the WW2 allies who had a veto in the question of German unification but decided not to use it, that still didn’t mean that East Germany had to agree to unification with us in West Germany.If East Germans had opted for staying on their own and maybe even renaming themselves, I wouldn’t have had a problem with that (though I’d have been sort of mystified about such a new name unless there was an obvious reason for such an action). But for sure, East and West Germany, in my books and in anyone else’s I know, were states independent of each other and entitled to their own decisions – coming together or staying apart.

    I think the most likely independence case among European countries now would be Scotland breaking away from the United Kingdom. Noone in England with property in Scotland would have to worry that he could lose this property or other legal stakes there in such a case. Both sides would respect such stakes.
    As for the Czech Republic and Slovakia who did break up in 1993, Czech citizens with property in Slovakia – and vice versa – had nothing to fear from the departure of Slovakia either.

    It is exactly the rule of law which makes it easier to respect each others’ decisions – individual and collective ones. I’d say it’s a matter of mutual respect.

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  40. Before I start, I want to let you know that I work for myself and no one else.

    Laowai, I must say you know really a lot about China. Yes, along the way, China occupied many countries, Xinjiang and Tibet in the west and Manchuria in the north and Guangxi and Yunnan in the south. Unfortunately, as you may feel, they are now all Chinese, whether you like it or not.

    Your visa, currency, and legal points have nothing to do with China’s (PR or RO) sovereignty over Taiwan. No countries and governments recognize “Taiwan” as a country or a sovereign state.

    Where are you from? If I know it, then I can help you find the flaws in your country’s system. As if you were from a land of honey and milk where only God rules!

    Chinese police officers arrest suspect criminals just as their foreign counterparts do. Similarly, some of them also abuse their powers, just as their foreign counterparts do. Did I say I support this misuse of police power?

    As for the Law, it is intended for everyone to obey everywhere on Earth. But, my observation is that the powerful and the wealthy have by-pass routes around it. This goes for China and wherever you are from.

    China, as a country that includes TW, HK, Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang, does not need to fit into your ideal of what China should or should not be like. We are who we are.

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  41. JR,

    I’m against it also because the current ROC, as a state, but not its unruly Presidents Chen and Lee, views it as a state that has territorial claim to the whole of China. All this fuss is a result of a civil war between the Chinese people, which has never technically ended. This condition is reflected in both Constitutions. I cannot go further to talk about the hypothesis you made because there can be too many of it. What a difference would it make to you if the mainland’s new state name was also Republic of China? For that matter, keeping the name ROC was an idea of Mao Zedong and his close comrades, but others rejected it. In the early days of the new State, it identified itself as People’s ROC or PROC, when dealing with foreign countries and representing the country at international meetings.

    The difference between Germany and China is that each side across the Strait has never recognized the other as a country or a state, that each side regards the other as part of China as it defines it. Before the mainlanders enter the island and the islanders enter the mainland, they all have to exchange their PR or RO passports with another kind of travel documents that do not identify the place where the passport holders are from as a country.

    The mainland and Taiwan are all of China though under different administrations. This is the status quo both sides do not want to change fundamentally for the time being and in the foreseable future. We do not need to go “West and East Germany” before we unite under one flag again.

    To all here:

    To make myself really well understood and leave no ambiguity that makes me false enemies of others, I would like to summarize my ideas in this comment:

    1. I support a unified China in the best interests of the Chinese people, not those of Beijing.

    2. Does Huolong support Beijing? Yes and no. I support its policies I deem as beneficial to the Chinese people and I oppose its policies I deem otherwise.

    3. I believe Taiwan’s democracy is a good thing for the rest of China. I have no problem identifying Democracy as a better way of running China. Again, we do not need another revolution to achieve it.

    4. Liberty, freedom of speech, and democracy. I have no difficulty thinking them as good. (Again, I don’t think Chinese versions of the three we will enjoy have to fit western ideals. They are not for the purposes of their own. Instead, they should be part of a bigger picture in which China gets better socially, economically, and politically. )

    Do not make me your false enemy and do not argue with me what I already agree with you.

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  42. Huolong,

    thanks for summarizing your stance. Web 2.0 is good for quick reactions, but the thread system sometimes doesn’t help to keep a discussion traceable for people who join in later, especially when it goes over dozens of comments on several threads.

    To be clear, I see no reason to believe that you’d comment on the behalf of anyone but yourself.
    I’ll reply to your comment later today or tomorrow.

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  43. China, as a country that includes TW, HK, Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang, does not need to fit into your ideal of what China should or should not be. We are who we are.

    A comment in between from here, before I’m coming back to the Taiwan issue later.
    You are who you are, Huolong, and don’t need to fit into Mylaowai’s ideals, mine, or anyones. That should go without saying. But I think that this “we” you are using is important. I’m not talking that much of myself as a German, maybe because that goes without saying, too. I have a strong sense of belonging to my people, but I don’t try to speak for my people. Their views on issues like the ones we are discussing are far too diverse for that.

    On the other hand, I think your sense of “who you are” has very real and everyday effects on business and relations between the West and China. I got some first-hand experience of that when I was working in China myself for a Sino-German joint-venture. I realized that being Chinese mattered before anything else there – including being “ruly” or “unruly” in a business sense. Some Chinese colleagues tried to be constructive and work in a professional way, but they had the hardest time of it. As far as I know, not one of them is still working in that town, but moved on during the past years. There appeared to be an unwritten but binding law that every Chinese employee had to oblige to a policy that put their nationality first, before actual issues, legal or just practial ones. “Chineseness” meant that they had to act in the interest of their Chinese boss, including technology theft, rather than for the benefit of the joint-venture and all its stakeholders.

    On the other hand, Chinese people seem to owe each other very little individually, unless they are family people, friends, or unless foreigners are involved.

    To be clear, I’m not actually criticizing this. I got paid for my work anyway, and it was good money. But of course, I saw lessons for myself in this story. I understood that how I see business, international relations and the duties and rights coming with it isn’t nearly enough for me to make the right decisions. How Chinese people, including rather independently-thinking people, think of themselves should have an impact on my own decisions, too. In that way, “the way China is” has a lot to do with us Westerners, or foreigners in general.

    I don’t think that either Mylaowai, C.A. Yeung, or I would blog on WordPress if we wanted to reach a mainland Chinese readership in the first place. In such a case, we’d have to choose both our blogging platforms and our words more carefully. For me, blogging is also a way to listen to myself while writing (one should have an appointment with oneself on a regular basis), and to see others react. When it is someone from mainland China, that’s just the better. But if my blog looks like one that wants to act like the little Voice of Germany to its readers, that’s certainly not my intention.

    The way “you” deal with issues like Tibet, Xinjiang or Taiwan is nothing I can do a lot about, but it is something I’m observing with interest, and I think it helps me understanding who you are, although from some places in China, I have the impression that this “We” may not be exactly as binding as your line or my memory suggests. China’s actions shape my views of how “we” (by we I’m mainly referring to Germany and Europe) should interact with China.

    I think these matters are worth some thoughts – and a lot of blogging.

    I’ll be back tomorrow night or on Thursday. This interlude comment of mine might mess the topcial consistency of this thread up further, but anyway, it’s blogging.

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  44. JR,

    Though I cannot claim I speak for the Chinese people, I can safely say and you can safely believe that I speak for quite many of them when it comes to national sovereignty and territorial integrity. They are just hardly visible and heard in the English-speaking blogosphere.

    As far as interaction with foreigners and their countries are concerned, I feel that my priority of considerations as a Chinese in order of importance should be I’m a human individual first and then a Chinese, though I often find myself believing the reserve is true.

    You are right. Mylaowai’s, C.A. Yeung’s and your blogs are not meant for people like me from the Chinese mainland. And yes, I agree with you that my comments on your blog are what blogging is about: hear and be heard.

    When I read posts I carefully wrote years ago (I started to “blog” in 2000 though at the time it was called “personal website”, where interactivity was not easily possible; technically, I think blogs should be a personal website form), they read as if they were written by someone else. The feeling is amazing. That’s why my posts are almost all well thought out and include hardly everyday details.

    You live in a society where its members share things in common, including what you think about things and in our case about China’s national sovereignty and territorial integrity. You think the same as your like-minded people do. This goes for me, too.

    Your blogs and mine are all built on WordPress systems though you cannot manage WP software itself and run under someone else’s domain name. I paid for a hosting package, registered my pinyin name as my domain name for free, set up WordPress software on my (rented share of) server and go blogging. I also run a BBS (http://surefire.cn/bbs/index.php) that is about a classic Chinese novel Hongloumeng, which I’m sure you won’t like because even most Chinese people don’t bother to read it. And of course, some friends of mine have their websites on my package, too. My hosting package is provided by a U.S. company IX Web Hosting. I tried to use domestically available blog service providers (like XXX.wordpress.com) and did not like them. They have censors to delete posts and comments for no reason and without notice. So, I decided to go “independent” and moved my blogs overseas to have complete control over my own sites. You might use this against my argument of TW, HK, and Tibet and so on. Look forward to reading your Taiwan comment.

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  45. Sorry, when I said (like XXX.wordpress.com), I meant a blog service provider. And wordpress.com is not available in the mainland and it does not censor posts.

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  46. Here is what I translated:

    http://tw.forum.news.yahoo.com/topic/tbn_1231469147/article/536.html

    I did an interesting questionnaire by asking lots of my friends who are doctors, service people, public servant, etc.

    Tons of them support Taiwan independence. But when asked if they would fight on the battle ground for it or allow their family members to do that, most of them replied: “I want Taiwan independence, but you do the fighting.”

    That’s what I think too: I want Taiwan independence, you do the fighting.

    http://tw.forum.news.yahoo.com/topic/tbn_1231469147/article/521.html

    Please don’t use Taiwan independence as a Party line! The 23 million Taiwanese people cannot afford it!

    No matter what we are told by others, we all love Taiwan. Even we die, we will be Taiwanese ghosts! Now, both Japanese and CPC (sic.) want to take advantage of us.

    They let us fight among ourselves and just watch and look our chaos. Do not take seriously whether or not foreign countries recognize Taiwan or not. They all have vested interests. Arguments among ourselves can only make our economy suffer. And their countries will lose nothing. Please ponder this: what they can get because they don’t recognize us?

    First, Taiwan’s internal chaos makes its people lose interest in developing economy. We’ve lost our export competitiveness and other countries will be very happy to see they have one competitor down and out. If one day, with Taiwan’s waning, we have to emigrate overseas to work as servants, they will say “Look, these Taiwanese guys are here to work as servants.” Do you think they will emphasize us?

    Second, if they recognize us as independent country, they will not be able to get money donations from the CPC (sic.). If they recognize use, we give the money. They are just holding Taiwan for ransom!

    Third, without the issue of Taiwan independence, politicians would have nothing to talk about. They talk about it only to get political power.

    Forth, the Taiwanese people should first of all do a good job! The jobless rate and company bankruptcies are so high. When we are united, we are the best of the Four Asian Dragons. Money talks!

    All in all, the Taiwanese people should open their eyes and put an end to elections that can be won by shouting empty slogans!

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  47. The mainland and Taiwan are all of China though under different administrations. This is the status quo both sides do not want to change fundamentally for the time being and in the foreseable future.

    Huolong, I think this is really the faultline between your view and mine. To me, Taiwan is another state that should be in a position to make its own decisions. It’s no question that they would have to risk war if they actually held a referendum with a sufficient turnout and a majority for a declaration of independence, plus action in accordance. I think that even a referendum with a likely, but not safely predictable outcome against independence would be too much for Beijing. If they decide to make a choice, it will be a tough choice, with no predictable end result.

    Most Taiwanese have a strong Chinese identity as far as I can tell, but they also have a history of their own. The opposition against martial law there was to some extent also an opposition against the mainland Chinese KMT (as it was before Lee Teng-hui became its chairman). If I were mainland Chinese (but lived through the personal experience that I have), I’d look at Taiwan with respect and say, Welcome to the motherland any time – but it has to be your choice. I have the feeling (but this isn’t meant to be unsolicited advice) that such a stance would create more sustainable unity with Taiwan than what coercion will ever achieve.

    China’s power is a heavy factor and may keep the Taiwanese from an open debate about what their future should look like. Power is something that I would have to take into account myself, just as well as they do. But before accounting for the power of others, I should be aware what I consider desirable myself. I think that if there was no immediate threat of war, this would also be the natural path for the Taiwanese to take: to have a public debate among themselves, and a referendum. Only then we could say what their side of the Strait really wants.

    I believe you when you say that you are a human individual first, and hope that you think of me the same way. Your position re Taiwan doesn’t change my view at all that you are yourself first. And at the same time, it’s obvious that nationality is a defining factor of our selfs (or selves).

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  48. Fault line! What a good word to describe your views and mine! You see Taiwan just as any other regular state that deserves to run on its own and makes its own choices as it pleases, though you truly believe it is Chinese. Actually, I have no problem with this – going independence happens and happened, just as the histories of Kosovo and the U.S.A. shows. I cannot say that the American colonies had fewer political, cultural, and social links with Great Britain than the Chinese mainland does with Taiwan when the American people decided to go their own way. It’s easy to understand that if the American colonies could, Taiwan can, too. If I were you, I would think the same: Independence for Taiwan, why not? But, unlike you who look at this whole thing from outside of China, I look at this issue from within China, its history, its interests as a nation. (And this is what you mean by “nationality is a defining factor”.) In its history, China has never lost its territory in times of great strength, not to mention as it’s now rising to make its comeback – I put this in a historical perspective, China had used 100 years to get back on its feet when the People’s Republic was proclaimed in 1949 and would use another 100 years to make its comeback to the center of the world – let’s say it’s 2049. Two hundred years. Too long a time for individuals. But for a country, especially China, it’s just one page of a history book. If China lost Taiwan Again, the day for the comeback would never come – because it even could not guard what it Had, not to mention it wanted to have More. Keeping Taiwan part of China is one of its core interests no matter who sits in Beijing. I don’t think China can afford to lose Taiwan on its way to reemergence as a world power.

    Taiwan does have a history of its own, just as all other Chinese regions do. Northeast China, where I come from, used to be called Manchuria and it used to be a State installed by Japanese in WWII. When it’s finally liberated, some of its young people were shocked to be told that they actually had been Chinese all along. They had been brought up to believe they were Japanese. As I observed from their online voices, many Taiwanese people have developed a “split personality”: they were brought up as Chinese citizens and now some of their influential politicians tell them they are not Chinese citizens.

    JR, if you watch carefully what Beijing says and does, you can notice that it deals in good faith with Taiwan. It shows its best goodwill towards it in all issues except for its independence aspirations. The last thing Beijing wants to do is use force against the island where another group of Chinese people live as home and this will only happen when the aspirations go too far. Even then, the force will be against the small number of people who want independence, not the ordindary Taiwanese people. Most Taiwanese neither want reunification with the mainland nor independence Now. They made the right decision when choosing Ma as their President: as long as there is peace across the Strait, both sides have plenty of time for everything. Beijing is waiting for Taiwan to show their conditions for re-unification. As I see it, the earlier they show them the better. Because when the mainland also turned a democracy with one of the best economies in the world, Taiwan would have fewer bargaining chips. Taiwan is not Hong Kong or Macau. It functions on its own and of course will come back as something really different from the two. This diversity is good for the Chinese as a whole. Though Beijing might not agree with me here, it’s a fact at least to some extent: it promotes changes for the better.

    I must say reality is very harsh for those Taiwanese who want independence from China. They will see they have no chance at all, even the least fat one.

    Everyone and every country live a world in which its components are interrelated. No one single part of it can have things their own way. For Taiwan, it has been Chinese and will remain Chinese – that’s its fate.

    I don’t think anyone needs to wait and do nothing about a serious disease developing in him to see what it will cause. It must be checked before it’s too late. Taiwan independence is such a disease. It means China’s health and future. Beijing well understands this and will not sit here doing nothing.

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  49. OK, I think this is the faultline indeed. No big changes of minds, but we’ve spoke our minds, and have listened.
    I’m not closing this thread, in case that either of us or someone else wants to add something, but I suggest that everyone who wants to go ahead from here first takes a look at the comments on this thread, plus
    this one, plus
    this one first.
    Merry weekend!

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